♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Carol Davis, president and CEO of CDAG International, helping to rebuild the Ukraine -- next, on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we are committed to diversity and understand our responsibility in supporting and empowering diverse communities.

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♪ ♪ ♪ >> We're very honored to have international developer Carol Davis.

Welcome.

>> Thank you.

Happy to be here.

>> What you're doing is very profound, given all of the attention that the world has on Ukraine and other parts of the world.

And you find yourself as a developer there.

But I want to go back to your beginning.

Tell us about your upbringing in East St. Louis.

>> Well, I was born in East St. Louis, Illinois.

And my parents brought me there from Mississippi.

We were originally from Mississippi, and we relocated to Illinois.

I was born there.

We were raised in projects called the Gompers in East St. Louis, Illinois.

And we stayed there until I was 18.

And we went to East St. Louis Senior High School.

But my upbringing in East St. Louis was very happy, despite the atmosphere, despite the poverty levels and the reputation of the city.

>> Working-class family.

>> Yes, working-class family.

My mother was a housewife.

My father was actually a janitor.

But we had a what I considered a very good life, even though there was some struggle, in terms of financial issues and not having enough money to take care of things, you know, all the time.

But, you know, we did well, and we were very happy.

>> Well, you know, it takes a lot of courage for a young woman to develop your own business.

What led you into construction, into development?

>> Actually, on the international front, we actually found that it was easier for a black woman, believe it or not, to work in the Middle East than it is in the United States.

I actually encountered a lot less racism, a lot less sexism, again, despite the attitude that a Muslim country is very difficult for women.

So, we started working very successfully there, partnering with local companies in Dubai and also in Egypt.

And we just found that it was more conducive to my company to work overseas because of the lack of racism -- it's still, you know, it's still there.

It's just not as prevalent in the U.S. And I was more accepted as a professional and wasn't viewed immediately as a black woman.

Here in the U.S., when I go into meetings or we go in to have a discussion about opportunities, the first thing that comes to the table is that I'm a black woman, and I'm apparently asking for some type of 8(a) or minority... >> Minority set-aside.

>> ...handout.

That's the initial perception, immediately.

Overseas, I don't have that issue.

So, we started focusing a lot more overseas, where the issue was about money and deal structure and not whether you're a black woman or not.

>> So, because as you've described, the lack of access here in the United States, you went directly to dealing with the people in Ukraine.

Tell us about how you were received and how people perceived what you have to offer, in terms of your skills and talents from a Ukrainian perspective.

>> Well, we were very well-received, very well-received by a lot of the local Ukrainian officials, especially some of the city mayors, the head of the villages, several nonprofit organizations, several NGOs.

There's a small village called Banyliv Village, which is part of Chernivtsi, which is a district in Ukraine near the Romanian border.

And we've had meetings with the city council in reference to helping them with their development.

We've also made donations to their school.

We've donated some medical equipment, as well.

And they recently gave us access to 60 acres to actually build the City of Hope and eventually building our relationship there with the right people, in terms of getting access to property for development.

It's nonprofit at this point, though.

>> Sure.

Explain the City of Hope.

Who will occupy the City of Hope?

>> It's going to be occupied by Ukrainian internally displaced persons, because right now there are approximately, I think, 200,000 or 300,000 people that are displaced in Ukraine.

They don't want to leave the country.

They want to stay inside of Ukraine.

So, this is going to be not really a refugee camp, because they don't consider themselves refugees in their own country.

It's going to primarily just be a housing facility temporarily set up for them.

Right now, we're trying to develop housing for 300 families by bringing in containers.

>> Your company?

>> Our company.

Yes.

>> Three-hundred Ukrainian families on Ukrainian territory during the war -- your company is helping them get housing.

>> Yes, that's what we're doing right now.

So, we've got access to the land.

Right now we're working on the infrastructure for the electrical and for the water supply.

And we're bringing in living containers that are already furnished with heat because the winter is coming very soon.

So, we're trying to make sure that we have all of the systems set up properly, in terms of them being comfortable.

And so, we're putting in the first ten containers in about three weeks.

And every week we're hoping to put in at least 10 to 15.

So, within the next hopefully 90 days, we've got all 300 families housed.

That's our goal.

>> Can some of that knowledge, some of that experience that you've gained in Ukraine, can some of that be transferred over to the United States, because we've got a housing problem in the United States.

We have internally displaced people in the United States not because of a war, but because of poverty, because of gentrification, and other dislocation issues.

>> Well, I think that it could be resolved.

I just think there's not a willingness to resolve it, I think, from the political powers to be, because there are hundreds of manufacturers in the United States that make living containers, that make houses out of railroad cars.

So, the supply is there in every state.

I think the issue has been, again, the unwillingness of the right people to help the homeless and to help the U.S. IDPs.

I think that's been the issue.

But if we have access to the land and access to financing, there's no reason that we can't do the same thing here for internally displaced people because the assets are here and the availability of tiny homes -- that's really been a major construction industry that's developed is making tiny homes and actually renovating railroad containers, as I said earlier, into homes.

So, it's there.

It's just a matter of the mayors and the governors, whoever, being willing to finance it and make it happen.

>> You were brought up in a housing project.

Now you're developing housing for people around the world.

I find that very, very interesting.

>> Oh, well, thank you.

Thank you.

And we're happy to be able to do it.

Obviously, we'd rather be doing it in the U.S., you know, helping our local communities.

But it's not possible.

And, again, it's shameful that we have to go overseas and deal directly with Ukrainians to get access to not only opportunity -- because we are looking at other opportunities; we are a business -- in addition to our humanitarian efforts.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> We're actually negotiating some demining capabilities at demining projects and also force protection.

>> Demining -- that means getting up mines that have been planted for people to step on.

You're actually also involved in removing some of these land mines?

>> Well, we're in negotiations right now with the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense for the mine removal, as well as force protection and providing bomb shelters and barricades around the schools and other structures in Ukraine, throughout Ukraine.

>> And this area where you're doing the development near the Ukrainian-Romanian border, it's been called the City of Hope.

>> Yes.

>> Who came up with that name?

>> Actually, the Ukrainians did.

The internally displaced people, they got together, and we had a discussion about what did they want to call it?

You know, we got Victory Village and Banyliv Township.

So, we got a lot of different names, but we decided to go with City of Hope because we felt it was, you know, really indicative of what we were trying to do.

>> It's optimistic.

>> Very optimistic.

Yes.

>> So, how do you get involved to be a developer?

I'm sure a lot of people watching this program are going to say, "Well, wow, how did Carol Davis get to this place internationally?"

If people want to go into construction or development, domestic or international, what are some of the career paths that you could recommend?

>> Well, I definitely would recommend studying international business, international law.

Even though I haven't studied it, I had to learn from experience.

The first thing that we do overseas is we look at the law structure and see what the rule of law is.

If it's Sharia law, especially we're in the Middle East, you know, what rights do we have if there is a conflict?

So, we always look at that in any country before we go in there.

Not Ukraine, because it's a war-torn country.

But when we do work in other countries, we do try to make sure that the licensing is not a difficult process, that you're able to own 100% of the company, because a lot of foreign countries the licensing is a big issue, and they prefer that a local person own 51% of the company, which is problematic.

So, we look at the basics, in terms of licensing and law, in case there is a conflict.

And if there is not a problem there, then we'll move into the procurement process of it, and we'll start looking at the local government, and we'll also look at what the U.S. government is doing on that property there.

So, in terms of construction, we do go after U.S. government projects overseas, but we actually partner with foreign companies, because they would rather see, the U.S. government would rather see a foreign company get the contract, in my opinion, than a black-woman-owned company overseas.

When I go into meetings with the Corps of Engineers in different countries, they're shocked that I'm there.

>> The Army Corps of Engineers.

>> U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

>> Yes.

>> And the first thing they do is they assume that I'm an 8(a) company.

They assume that I'm there for a subcontract opportunity.

They don't think that I'm there to actually bid the project, usually as a joint-venture partner with a large local company.

It takes them a minute to get their head wrapped around that, because -- again, because of my complexion and my gender.

I'm sure if I was of the -- if I was a white male, they wouldn't really -- the question would come up, obviously.

>> Well, you know, you've learned a lot.

You should write a book about your experiences in development and construction as an international developer.

>> Well, that's something at this point I wouldn't consider because I'm so busy just trying to, you know, get the contracts and get the work done.

But I am very open to passing on my knowledge.

You know, we do have a lot of discussions with younger people.

We have a scholarship foundation for young entrepreneurs, and we do try to teach them really hands-on how to do business, both here in the U.S. with the government and with local states and also overseas.

But it's not that easy overseas because you do have so many other factors, in terms of licensing, the local culture, slow payment from other countries.

They pay very slow.

The U.S. government pays better than anybody in the world, and they pay on time.

So, that's always a big factor for us.

But I would recommend that people not really be afraid to try to go overseas, just be cognizant of what the local law is, in terms of conflict and contracts.

That's what I would be careful of.

But there is opportunities there.

There's opportunities here in the U.S., as well.

I think if the U.S. government, you know, they can make a declaration of equity and inclusion, but policy without enforcement is worthless.

>> So, the Biden-Harris administration needs to take greater steps to enforce the executive order on equity, diversity, and inclusion.

>> Oh, absolutely.

There's no trickle down, because the issue that I've seen from doing this for a long time, over 30 years, is that, you know, it comes from appropriations.

It goes down to the Department of State or Department of Energy or whatever.

And then they divide the work based on their acquisition strategy, and then it goes down to the contracting offices.

And that's where I think the holdup is, in terms of more black companies being included in the procurement process.

I think it's in the contracting level, because those people have relationships with companies that they like, that they know.

And I think there is not enough control in the contracting level to actually ensure opportunities for minority and small businesses.

>> As a result of your work now in the Ukraine, are you optimistic that the Ukrainians will be able to fully recover?

>> I mean, I'm fairly optimistic.

I mean, Putin's attack recently, where he shot missiles into nine different cities all over Kyiv, I mean, all over Ukraine, is bothersome.

I think they can recover.

From what I'm seeing every day, they're rebuilding.

So, when he sends in a missile, they come in, and they rebuild it.

USAID has given them quite a bit of money for electrical upgrades.

So, they have money -- a lot of money from NATO and the European Union and the U.S. government.

And they're very tenacious.

So, they are determined to win the war and rebuild.

Where we're building our City of Hope is in a small, very rural area.

So, we feel that that area is safe, even though it was maybe four hours away from one of the cities that was bombed recently.

So, it's still fairly close, but there aren't any major structures there.

So, I think our chances of an attack are very minimal because there's nothing there but, you know, cows and sheep.

So, we're very, you know, comfortable building it there.

I think the people will be safe.

And we're also putting in bomb shelters, as well, though, just in case, because, you know, you never know.

>> So, how often do you go back and forth between the Ukraine and the United States?

>> About every two weeks.

>> Every two weeks.

>> About every two weeks.

>> You have a lot of frequent-flier miles.

>> I do.

[ Laughs ] It's an ongoing project, and it's very critical.

And so, we're doing infrastructure right now, trying to make a determination of the placement of the containers.

How many can we get?

We have a total of 60 acres.

So, right now, we're working on the initial 40 acres of putting in the living containers.

And the reason we have an ambitious program of 300 people is that we're using living containers, and we're bringing them in from Romania and also some local suppliers from Ukraine.

So, we have access to a very fast supply that they can manufacture very quickly and move them from the warehouse in Romania into Ukraine in about a 4-hour period.

So, it's not an ambitious -- overly ambitious program.

I feel confident we can get it done because of the location of the manufacturing facilities.

>> Who in the current administration has talked directly to you about the success that you're having in Ukraine?

>> We haven't been able to contact anybody in the current administration or any of the agencies.

They've been very nonresponsive.

But we haven't made any attempt to contact anybody in the administration as far as, like, the White House or anything like that.

We've been focusing quite a bit on the Department of Defense, USAID, and the State Department.

So, we had not really contacted the White House.

We thought we could actually get some traction by showing our capabilities on the ground and showing that we were, you know, bringing value to the U.S. government.

But, again, what they see when they see us is, "Oh, it's just another minority company trying to get some business.

What are they doing in Ukraine?

What do they know about Ukraine?"

So, you know, we really can't get past just the prejudice and perception of lack of capabilities internationally to even get to talk to a contracting officer.

So, we really just gave up and started going over to Ukraine and started trying to talk to some of the people there in the government and local governments to get access to opportunity, as well as helping the people at the same time.

>> Well, that strategy of going directly to the Ukraine seems to be working for you.

I want to ask this question.

You go back and forth between the United States and Ukraine frequently.

When you come back to United States, show your passport, you're you back in America, and you visit some of these cities in the United States, including Washington -- you see the homelessness even in D.C. -- what comes to mind about the need, the urgency of providing housing for people here in America?

>> You know, actually, I wonder why the United States can send $80 billion to Ukraine, but they can't send, you know, $2 billion to Washington, D.C., and resolve the homeless crisis here.

I do wonder about that.

You know, I want to help Ukraine, but I think the U.S. government should help U.S. communities just as much as they're helping Ukrainian communities.

I think it is necessary that they're helping Ukraine, but I think they can also help people here, as well.

So, I do think about that.

I also look at the lack of access to this $80 billion for small, you know, and brown and black communities.

So, all of this money is going over to Ukraine is being spent.

But no other companies are benefiting from it other than the large, white firms.

And I just think that's unfair.

But we can't do anything about it.

I mean, we've been knocking on doors, and we push as hard as we could, and we're still pushing, but we're still not getting a response from anybody.

And they know our capabilities on the ground over there.

>> As the president and CEO of your own international development company, being an African-American woman, what gives you your tenacity, because I'm sure -- you say you run into a lot of nonresponsiveness from government agencies in the United States, and then you went straight to a place like Ukraine and developed these relationships over there that seem to be working.

What gives you your fire to keep doing this?

>> You know, I think it's a combination of not taking no for an answer and also probably anger and I think disappointment that nothing's changed in the last 30 years that I've been in business.

>> In 30 years.

>> In terms of the lack of opportunity, in terms of the racism, in terms of the marginalization of being a black-woman-owned company here in the U.S., the lack of respect, the privilege that I see when I see large, white firms getting contracts that we should have gotten just based on the fact that they're white.

I have a big issue with that.

So, I think that contributes a lot to my tenacity of not giving up and trying to overcome the unfairness.

So, we've learned, especially being from East St. Louis, Illinois, from a poor neighborhood and a difficult upbringing, of not giving up and always finding another solution.

And I think as black people, we always have to find another solution because it's not easy for us.

We don't have the privilege.

We just can't walk in the door and get something just based on our skin color.

So, I've learned to be extremely tenacious and somewhat fearless, you know?

So, going to Ukraine for me really is not a big deal at all.

You know, I don't want to go -- I'm not going to go on the border of Russia, where they're fighting.

I won't go there, but I will go to Kyiv to look for opportunities there.

So, I think what keeps me driven is the fact that the world is unfair, but you can either accept it or keep fighting.

So, we've decided to keep fighting.

>> And because you keep fighting, you're helping to change the world and make it to a better place.

>> I hope so.

>> Carol Davis, president and CEO of CDAG International, thank you so much for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> You're welcome.

Thank you for having me.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, please visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we are committed to diversity and understand our responsibility in supporting and empowering diverse communities.

Diversity and inclusion is integral to the way we work.

Supporting the financial health of our diverse customers and employees is one of the many ways we remain invested in inclusion for all today, tomorrow, and in the future.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to empowering people to choose how they live as they age.

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